As the body of human knowledge has increased, creationists advocating a literal interpretation of the Bible are required to devise ever more complex defenses. Like many debate subjects, it is easy to get caught up in complex details and miss the many simple and devastating debating points immediately available to anyone. For example, the Noah story involves the idea of a worldwide deluge that wiped out all life except the animals (representatives of literally all of the world’s land dwelling “kinds”) on one boat with its small crew of eight humans. Here are some obvious problems with the Noah story (with thanks to Robert J. Schadewald in Creation/Evolution and Mark Isaac in Talk Origins for many of these insights).
- There are literally thousands of freshwater species of fish for whom exposure to salt water would be fatal. A worldwide deluge would have wiped out freshwater environments by blending it with ocean water.
- Gen 8:11 says, “And the dove came in to him in the evening; and, lo, in her mouth was an olive leaf pluckt off…” Given that the world was covered for a very long time by raging waters, terrestrial vegetation would not have survived. There could be no living olive trees, and certainly none with leaves attached for the plucking.
- Predators don’t exist in a one-to-one relationship with their prey. For each predator, many individual prey animals have to exist in order to maintain a stable balance. With only two of their prey species alive, how did these predators survive?
- Many disease-causing microorganisms can survive only if they find a host from just one species. They survive by hopping from host to host as each host specimen dies, is chased off by its immune response, or is driven into a dormant state to rear its head at a later time. This has some implications for the Noah story:
- Any species-specific disease that has to move to another susceptible host in short period of time would have become extinct since there was only one other possible host.
- Even if all species-specific diseases could ride out the Ark voyage in a dormant state, we are still left having to assume that one or both of the breeding pair would had to have been caring all of those diseases—at least all of those we find existing today.
- Just like so many other animal species, the human animal also has species-specific diseases. These include Measles (World Health Organization, 2012), Hepatitis B (Centers for Disease Control and Prevention, 2012), Influenza B, Polio (Centers for Disease Control and Prevention, 2011), Typhoid Fever (Centers for Disease Control and Prevention, 2010), Gonorrhea (LeFebvre, 2010), and Syphilis (World Health Organization, 2004) among others.
Not only is this last point a problem for the literal interpretation of the Ark story, but it raises a question about the Creation story itself. Creationists seem committed to the idea that there was just one act of Creation. But if this is true, then diseases like syphilis and gonorrhea must have been created with Adam and Eve, before the Fall. If they were created as a result of the Fall, then there was a second act of Creation; if not, then these deadly diseases must have existed in the Garden Eden before Original Sin. Even if the Creationist wants to argue that God fundamentally redesigned some earlier, friendly microorganism into these new organisms that can live only by feeding on humans, it stills leaves us with the creation of a new kind, regardless of whether it was created from nothing or from an earlier kind. You either have an instance of a second creation act, or an instance of speciation occurring after the first creation act.
Works Cited
Centers for Disease Control and Prevention. (2010, October 5). Typhoid Fever. Retrieved June 09, 2012, from National Center for Emerging and Zoonotic Infectious Diseases: http://www.cdc.gov/nczved/divisions/dfbmd/diseases/typhoid_fever/
Centers for Disease Control and Prevention. (2011, February 29). Vaccines and Preventable Diseases: Polio Disease In-Short. Retrieved June 09, 2012, from CDC: http://www.cdc.gov/vaccines/vpd-vac/polio/in-short-both.htm
Centers for Disease Control and Prevention. (2012, May). Hepatitis B. Retrieved June 9, 2012, from Pink Book: http://www.cdc.gov/vaccines/Pubs/pinkbook/downloads/hepb.pdf
LeFebvre, D. (2010, July 26). Gonorrhea and Chlamydia. Retrieved June 9, 2012, from University of California Davis: Cosmos : http://cosmos.ucdavis.edu/archives/2010/cluster7/Medrano_Miranda_Gonorrhea%20and%20Chlamydia.pdf
World Health Organization. (2004, June). Disease Watch: In the News. Retrieved June 09, 2012, from Nature Reviews: Microbiology: http://www.who.int/std_diagnostics/publications/Disease%20watch%20syphilis.pdf
World Health Organization. (2012, May 29). Measles. Retrieved June 9, 2012, from World Health Organization: Western Pacific Region: http://www.wpro.who.int/mediacentre/factsheets/fs_20120224/en/index.html
“There are literally thousands of freshwater species of fish for whom exposure to salt water would be fatal. A worldwide deluge would have wiped out freshwater environments by blending it with ocean water.”
This is unspecific, name one fish. As far as i know there is no such species.
“Gen 8:11 says, “And the dove came in to him in the evening; and, lo, in her mouth was an olive leaf pluckt off…” Given that the world was covered for a very long time by raging waters, terrestrial vegetation would not have survived. There could be no living olive trees, and certainly none with leaves attached for the plucking.”
Olive seed can be dormant and survive up to two years. Given the flood lasted less than that, it is not impossible to find olive.
“Predators don’t exist in a one-to-one relationship with their prey. For each predator, many individual prey animals have to exist in order to maintain a stable balance. With only two of their prey species alive, how did these predators survive?”
How many predator did Noah bring? we have no idea. This argument is only true if there is equal number of predator and prey in the ark. Anyway, breeding can happened in the ark and hence this ratio argument become irrelevant.
“Many species of germs are species-specific (“conspecific”). They can live only if they can find a host of just one species.”
Not really.
1. measles can be dormant in human host for a very long time.
2. leprosy, natural infected host have been found.
typhus are found in fleas
3. typhoid fever: Salmonella can survive in mammals, lizard, etc.
4. pneumococcal pneumonia, human can be carrier without symptom
5. small pox can lie dormant for years.
6. poliomyelitis can be carried by chimpanzee.
7. syphilis can be grown in other mammalian host.
8. gonorrhea- can infect guinea pigs, rabbits, mice, hamsters, rats, rhesus monkeys, chimpanzees, and baboons.
Disease is the result of curse. Changes in genetics cause the pathogens to turn virulent. Therefore, it is not a creation event.
Hi Daniel,
Thank you for your post. I had originally put this short piece together about 10 years ago and re-posted it to this newer blog. Your comments prompted me to add primary source references to the article. I’ve also updated the original list.
And yes, diseases that can go dormant for extended periods would not be forced to jump to another species member before its host succumbs or destroys it. In fact, Schadewald–one of my original secondary sources–did limit that part of his argument only to those diseases whose cycle is less than a year (consistent with Noah’s time on the Ark), and this is now pointed out.
I’ll take your comments in order:
First, regarding fresh water fish that cannot survive in salt water: According to Dr. Tom F Ihde of the US Department of Energy, “Approximately 2% of all 21000 species of fish actually move from freshwater to saltwater or from salt to fresh at some point in their lives, the move would kill any other fish” (Ihde, 2012). This leaves well over 20,000 species—far more than just the one you requested. To name one explicitly, I chose the Northern Snakehead. But I might add here that fish are not the only ones that would die if exposed: “Other species, such as salamanders or certain treefrogs, may have a very restricted range of habitats because they cannot withstand exposure to saltwater” (Marine Resources Research Institute).
As for the olive tree, keep in mind that the scripture is talking about a bird returning with a “leaf pluckt off,” not an olive seed or old soggy olive from before the flood. The “pluckt” term also means it was not a free-floating leaf (if it did, then the significance of the passage would be lost). So, if a seed survived the raging flood waters, it would have needed sufficient conditions and time to produce a tree from which to pluck off a leaf. But why even attempt a rational or scientifically supportable defense here? You already have God using supernatural powers to gather the species into an ark in the first place; why not just say he modified the rules of nature and made mature olive trees suddenly appear as a sign to Noah?
Regarding the ratio of predators to prey, are you saying there weren’t two of each kind? For example, the two lions on board would have needed to eat lots of food, and there would have been only one breeding pair of any given prey species on board, like the gazelle. So, the moment the lions started on their first on-board meal they would have immediately doomed whole “kinds” to extinction: by killing even one animal they would have killed one of the breeding pair for a whole “kind.” If they waited for the prey to breed in sufficient numbers as you suggest, then it would have been the predators that went extinct from hunger. But again, why not just invoke God’s supernatural powers? Why not claim that just as he just stopped the sun in the sky, he also stopped the requirement for food on board the ark?
Finally, regarding species-specific diseases, your point about dormancy, while correct, still requires that the Ark’s humans–as a group–had to be carrying all of these diseases. I should think believers in the Noah story would be uncomfortable with the idea that Noah’s family was responsible for hosting all human-specific diseases, including sexually transmitted diseases, in at least a dormant state.
Works Cited
Ihde, T. F. (2012, Apr). Ask a Scientist! DOE Office of Science. Retrieved June 2012, from Freshwater fish in salt water : http://www.newton.dep.anl.gov/askasci/bio99/bio99295.htm
Marine Resources Research Institute. (n.d.). Herpetofauna. Retrieved June 2012, from Executive Summary: Biological Resources: http://www.dnr.sc.gov/marine/mrri/acechar/herpetof.htm
Hi,
1. The upper tolerance level for salinity for northern snakehead is 18 ppt according to Steve Minkkinen, USFWS as cited in National Control and Management Plan for the Northern Snakehead (Channa argus). this is true if one rear the fish in a well-mixed aquarium tank. How ever given that mixing in seawater is very poor, it is wrong to assume all seawater is as salty as 35 ppt. Even after mixing for millions of years (as according to evolutionist), the range of salinity in ocean is still very high (as low as 29 ppt to as high as 37 ppt http://www.coas.oregonstate.edu/index.cfm?fuseaction=content.display&pageID=392). So in the event of flood, it was possible for snakehead to survive in low salinity seawater (as mixing of seawater and freshwater is inefficient). Again, we know that the salinity of ocean varied over time, most probably in an increasing manner due to ever increasing water demand by human population. Thirdly, snakehead can burrow in mud hence protect itself from salinity.
2. Olive seed can survive the flood and germinate up to 2 years as mentioned earlier and this is a scientific study. See Olive Propagation Manual By Andrea Fabbri, Giorgio Bartolini, Maurizio Lambardi, Stanley George Kailis.
3. Remember that for certain animals, Noah brought 7 pairs instead of 2. Furthermore, bible never mentioned that all the kinds when departed from the ark were 2 of each kind. They can propagate in the ark. And Noah did bring food for all the animals (Genesis 6:21).
4. No, all Christians believed that illness is the result of sin. So if there was sin in the ark, there was disease.
Hi Daniel,
(Just a quick side note: I have a number of projects coming due at close to the same time and this is limiting my ability to respond as quickly as I would like. But thanks for your comments. Rather than wait too long, I’ll respond in parts beginning with the salinity component.) As we were discussing, there are many species of fish that simply can’t live in salt water, just as there are many species of fish that can’t live in fresh water. There are also fish that have a wide tolerance range and can live in both environments. The vast majority of fish, as we saw, fall into the salt-intolerant or fresh-intolerant categories.
But what do we mean by “salty” and “fresh”? As soon as we get specific and put numbers to these ideas, it gets very interesting. In fact, salinity tolerance is so important that it forms a basis for classification. Specifically, there is a classification known as the stenohalines (“steno” for narrow range, and “haline” for salt). There are stenohalines on the fresh water side, and stenohalines on the salt water side. Freshwater stenohalines need to stay below around 8 parts salt per thousand, while saltwater stenohalines need to stay above around 30 parts per thousand (Speight & Henderson, 2010, p. 6). Outside of these ranges, many of these species quickly die. Note that such stenohalines include starfish, sea urchins, and plants (NOAA, 2008).
Are there fish that can tolerate the salinity ranges in between? Certainly. Such species even have their own classification: the euryhalines. These are, however, a small minority of all fish. However, the Noah story requires not just that some currently-living species had been able to survive the salinity changes associated with a global Flood. The Noah story requires that each and every one had been able to survive or they wouldn’t be here now. With such a requirement the Noah story can be falsified with just one counterexample.
In your recent response to “James” you seem to be arguing that maintaining the different salt tolerance levels of each these species would not have been a problem in a global flood since the diffusion of salt would have proceeded slowly. I can only assume that you do not support Morris’s public school text book offering (“Scientific Creationism”), which describes the deluge as a “great hydraulic cataclysm” with “currents of waters pouring perpetually from the skies and erupting continuously from the earth’s crust, all over the world.” He claims that this would involve “outpourings of magma from the mantle, gigantic earth movements, landslides, tsunamis, and explosions.” The effect, according to Morris, is that “[t]he waters would undergo rapid changes in heat and salinity.”
Whether or not you reject this “Scientific Creationism” text book, you claim that “patches of fresh water can exist,” and that, presumably, the freshwater stenohalines would be able to survive. Keep in mind that something like 98% of all fish species are stenohalines on either the salt or fresh water side. Therefore, some “patches of freshwater” would hardly be sufficient. We would need the right concentrations to be maintained for the vast majority all these species. So the sizes, locations, and relative stability of these “patches” over a long time would have to be lucky indeed, especially for the many freshwater amphibians and stenohaline plants whose mobility options are limited. This seems especially hard to imagine under Morris’s violent, churning, rapid-salinity-changing world flood model.
I think it’s important to stress that for the Noah Story to be true it’s not enough to identify one exceptional case, or one lucky escape story (like burrowing in river mud for a year while a violent, crushingly deep global ocean is piling on top of you amidst violent, explosive upwellings, etc.) or even many such stories. Every single case would have to be exceptional or have such a story—and in both directions: You would have to show that every example of a freshwater stenohaline (plants, starfish, amphibians, etc., included) was in fact able to survive the Noachian Global soup along with every example of a saltwater stenohaline. In other words, you would have to show that the whole stenohaline classification is either completely mistaken in every case (not just some), or, you would have to show that something like your burrow-in-the-mud strategy (or custom patch of water) could be found for every case on the freshwater side and every case on the saltwater side.
Also, in your comment to “James,” you began looking at the question of what a “species” is. I think that’s worth discussing. I might turn this around in anticipation of where I think you’re going and ask, what is a “kind”? If you allow that only “kinds” needed to be represented on the Ark and that species could evolve from those “kinds,” then are you embracing some form of Darwinism, with some appreciation for the creative powers of natural selection operating on chance combinations and chance mutations to accumulate improvements, which lead to new species? Either way, I would appreciate a usable definition of “kind.”
Anyway, I’m getting a bit long here and short on time, so I’ll address seed viability, the by-two’s or by-seven’s, feeding the predators, and the post-creation appearance of pathogenic organisms in a subsequent post.
Works Cited
NOAA. (2008, Mar 25). NOAA Ocean Service Education. Retrieved July 7, 2012, from National Oceanic and Atmospheric Administration: http://oceanservice.noaa.gov/education/kits/estuaries/estuaries07_adaptations.html
Speight, M. R., & Henderson, P. (2010). Marine Ecology: Concepts and Applications. Oxford: Wiley-Blackwell.
Hello Daniel I feel inclined to comment of your last post here.
According to a U.S. geological survey publication by Herbert Swenson approximately 97% of the water on earth is salt water. About 1% is available to us to drink, and a majority of the fresh water would be the glaciers. These would have no doubt melted in such tremendous rainfall so we can assume that all of the fresh water mixed with salt water.
Lets explain why this doesn’t matter for fresh water specific species. According to the same article I cited earlier the average salinity of sea water is 35 ppt. It varies however, some parts of the oceans are up to 40 ppt. Now, assuming fresh water is absolutely free of dissolved salts (it isn’t), even if you mix all of that with salt water you still have water that’s too salty for fresh water organisms. True, eventually the water might be diluted by the rains that flooded earth, as only fresh water evaporates (the dissolved salts are left behind in the remaining water). There’s some chemistry to it but it makes sense. Further more, where would such a large supply of water to support this huge amount of water? Every ounce of water that would ever exist of earth existed then and those people were not submerged in oceans. You would need a tremendous secondary water source. I suppose this would be attributed to god’s supposed powers.
As for the olive seed yes, you are right about how long they can stay dormant if they do not have the necessary resources, you know, like water and sun light to support their germination? Oh wait, they would have had both. Any seed submerged in water (assuming it was trapped or previously buried)would rot or, due to diffusion, would have shriveled and died due to the loss of the water that remains inside the seed. Any floating seeds would also suffer the same fate. Even if you take salt out of the equation, with fresh water and sunlight the seeds would have been stimulated enough to germinate, as seeds carry a sort of “stored food source” to insure that they can begin their cell division and break through their seed casings, establish a root system where they absorb the other nutrients from soil in order to support the growth of the stem and new leaves that break through the surface. Once they germinated in water, they have no other source for their nutrients, and will likely die. Say in some places the soil has been stirred and the water is black from the dirt. Surely at least one could survive there right? Yeah, sure, possibly. Note though, that we are still excluding the still high salinity of the earths flood water. Back to fresh water land, yes it could possibly survive in very dirty, calm water. Until it started to take on those tree like properties and becomes too dense to stay on the surface and therefore sinks to a depth probably impenetrable by sunlight. Even if its not, there is not enough free oxygen in water to sustain photosynthesis and so either way the plant dies and has no chance to survive past the seven month flood. No trees growing, no leaf to pluck.
Even if Noah had brought more animals to feed the predators, assuming he even had room since there was at least two of each species on their (had to be millions) compared to that number, the arch isn’t very big at all. He simply wouldn’t have enough room to have a large enough supply to support predators for seven months, even if you take reproduction into account. Only small mammals and insects reproduce in that amount of time. This will not support the huge population of predators he would have had to be carrying on board.
Illness is a result of sin? I am by absolutely no means perfect. I cuss, I look at pretty girls, I get horny, I get sad, angry, and jealous. I do not steal. I do not hurt people, in fact it is my utter goal in life to help people and I do so when ever possible. I feel love for the vast majority of humanity and sympathy for the rest. I use this to cancel my anger and jealousy when they arise, and they do. Basically, aside from the whole “accepting Jesus into your heart”, I am essentially christian, oh and I don’t go to church. But I always spread open mindedness, acceptance, and love, wherever I go, or I do my best anyways. I also have been abused, beaten, and when I was younger, sick to the point of nearly dieing several times, and one time I technically did. I am also ill now with an auto immune disease that makes me feel sick and nauseous every day. Even when I’m regular on my medicine. I am not so sick because I am a great sinner. I have this because sometimes bad things happen and you can let it defeat you or you can become stronger from it. The best part is, it’s your choice.
Illness has nothing to do with sin. The most greedy, corrupt, selfish people, for instance the ones in charge of representing us, use their power to give themselves the illusion of happiness. They do nothing good. They only do things in favor of keeping their pockets lined (most anyway). These people rarely experience illness.
“Good” and “profit” almost never go together. You do not judge a good action based on what you have gained, but what you have lost or given or changed for the better. Doing something good in hopes of “earning points” adds a taste of corruption to the act. Your doing this because you know you’ll benefit in the end? Doesn’t sound so good does it? No, you do something good simply because it needs to be done, whatever it is.
Hi,
Regarding seawater: you are talking about average salinity, while i am talking about the range of salinity in seawater. Then you go on to extrapolates things to an extant that it no longer applies to the flood: you claim that “when mix all of that with salt water you still have water that’s too salty for fresh water organisms.” I do not dispute this. But you forget to mention the time. To mix salt water and fresh water in a glass, you need only few seconds; in an aquarium, a few minutes; in a half hectare. 4 feet deep pond (I do this always), a day or two; the whole ocean, ??? probably a few years. As you pointed out yourself that the range of salinity is high, it can get as low as 29 ppt even after years (you would say millions) of mixing. As the flood lasted about a year, patches of fresh water can exist.
Regarding the amount of water: 2 assumptions are needed to assume that there is not enough water. First, the amount of water remained the same over the last thousands of years, which is not true. Earth continue to lost water due to hydrogen escape (see http://www.scientificamerican.com/article.cfm?id=how-planets-lose-their-atmospheres)(and as it is a miracle, God would have prepare enough water). Some water bind permanently with compounds to form hydrated product. Secondly, the landscape of earth remained unchanged, which is also not true. So it is not true to assume that there was not enough water to flood earth in Noah’s time.
Regarding germination: Again you are simplifying things. Germination of seed requires a lot more than sunlight and water. It is a combination of various factors: oxygen, temperature, dormancy state (yes there are dormant and non-dormant seeds), nitrate, sensitivity to light, etc. I am talking about germination of dormant seed. It is too long to be discussed here, so read up before making unsubstantial claim about germination of seed.
Regarding amount of animal: all your arguments are based on an assumption: there are millions of species on earth. Or are there? How do you define species? Do you consider grizzly and polar bear as a single species?
Illness: I guess you are not a fundamentalist. A Christian must be a fundamentalist. Non-fundamentalist cannot be a Christian. See definition of fundamentalist in Christianity. As for illnesses is the result of sin, by faith I will say it is true. But I agree with you that doing good cannot get you to heaven, and we do good because it is necessary ( this is also one of the main teachings in Christianity).
quick correction, I said “diffusion” earlier. I should have said “osmosis” since we were talking about the transport of water through a membrane. Oh and as for the mud, it would only help for a short while. Eventually the water in the mud would match that of the surrounding water. This would be diffusion.